• flyingchaucer@lemmy.sdf.org
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    1 year ago

    I’m not the person you’re replying to, but maybe as far back as we have receipts?

    In this case, there’s no mystery about who did what to whom and what they took. The Dutch and English kept very good records. In fact, the whole colonial project was very well accounted for.

    • PugJesus@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      I’m not the person you’re replying to, but maybe as far back as we have receipts?

      Is there any limit to this principle?

      • flyingchaucer@lemmy.sdf.org
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Apparently, otherwise we would have begun the work of dismantling Western imperialism.

        Do you think there should be a limit?

        I personally think we should work to redress the wrongs we can, and in this case, the West could be doing a lot more to fix their crimes and being a lot less uppity about it.

        • PugJesus@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          Apparently, otherwise we would have begun the work of dismantling Western imperialism.

          Do you think there should be a limit?

          Seemingly controversially, I don’t believe in ancestral guilt. As a mixed-race individual, I’m not half-oppressor and half-oppressed. Reparations should be to the extent of bringing others in-line with an equal and whole share of the polity - or the international community, as the case may be.

          As such, I would not regard there as being a set number for reparations - however many trillions it takes, it is the responsibility of those who have the necessary resources to assist those who lack the same access to resources. This is not a matter of debts to be ‘repaid’, it is a matter of recognizing the equal worth and humanity of others, regardless of nation. It is not a matter of guilt when the grandchildren of the grandchildren of the people who did these crimes are, themselves, long dead. These problems arose from division - they must end in unity and brotherhood.

          Obviously, there are also more recent crimes to be answered for - these are a debt in a much more real sense, and it necessary for governments to both acknowledge wrongdoing and make compensation to survivors or immediate family under civil law. Though obviously nothing can undo a crime once committed, that is the process that is generally agreed upon.

          • flyingchaucer@lemmy.sdf.org
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            I don’t really know what ancestral guilt is or what it has to do with anything people are asking for. It sounds very… Christian? Not that that’s a bad thing, it’s just not really the paradigm.

            People from former colonies don’t necessarily want anyone to feel guilty, they just want to get paid back. Like you’ve said, everyone who was part of the original colonial thrust has died. Now it’s just a matter of paying it back + interest and a fine, and we’re on the way to being even Steve.

            Sure, there’ll be some bad feelings, but that’s because the wound is still open.

            • PugJesus@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              7
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              I don’t really know what ancestral guilt is or what it has to do with anything people are asking for. It sounds very… Christian? Not that that’s a bad thing, it’s just not really the paradigm.

              People from former colonies don’t necessarily want anyone to feel guilty, they just want to get paid back. Like you’ve said, everyone who was part of the original colonial thrust has died. Now it’s just a matter of paying it back + interest and a fine, and we’re on the way to being even Steve.

              This is directly contradictory to my reading, I think this is what this whole dialogue hinges on.

              My argument is that holding the people of modern countries responsible for the actions of their ancestors, by imposing a debt (and ‘interest and a fine’), that is ancestral guilt, and it is a fundamentally absurd concept.

      • flyingchaucer@lemmy.sdf.org
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        I don’t think anyone seriously thinks guilt can be inherited… “Ancestral guilt” is a totally stupid concept, and framing colonial reparations that way is arguing in bad faith.

        I thought it would be funny to point out we literally have the receipts of colonialism, but that turned out to be arguing with pigeons.

        • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I am glad the nicer version of the argument you have created for yourself matches up with the argument that you wish they had made.

          • flyingchaucer@lemmy.sdf.org
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Is that what I’m doing, what Pug is doing or what you are doing? (downvote if it’s you so I can know)