You can also leave.
Stick to subscriptions and don’t join instances that are havens for trolls like hexbear and lemmygrad.
Odd thing is I’ve had more bad LW and ML interactions then those two.
ml is definitely a tankie instance but I remember .world being kinda center right/left to liberal for the most part. I’m on Mbin these days because I like the interface better, but blocking people and sticking to subs definitely helps IMO
Personally I would prefer a tankie over a reddit-style neolib but I get your point. I’ll have to checkout the interface!
I’d prefer neither lol
I believe that most of what some call “toxic” online behaviour boils down to people who treat the unknown as if it was certain.
That’s kind of how it is but the other way. I’ve noticed people just assume really quickly then write some rude reply and the clearly forming hive mind jumps in… not fun
Following this logic, it’s human behaviour that predates the internet. And social media catalyses it - what you write is exposed to more people, who know even less about you than RL people would, with access to even less of the context necessary to take conclusions about you and what you say. The “let’s fill holes with shit we just made up!” process is still the same, but now there are even more holes to fill.
And the dogpiling you mentioned (forming hive mind jumps in)? Well, it’s still that “treating the unknown as if it was certain”, but on steroids. Instead of treating what people say as potentially true/false, they treat it as certainly true/false and good/bad and anyone disagreeing/agreeing with you must be picking the right/wrong side.
Perhaps that’s a sign that our human nature leans towards tribalism, not towards rationality.
I don’t know a good solution for that. What I’ve been doing is
- pre-emptively blocking
- disregarding intentions - so I don’t become part of the problem (or, if I am part of the problem, become less of)
- going “old man screams at cloud” style when I see this sort of assumption online, in the hopes that it changes something
- removing egregious examples of people who behave like this, specially in an accusatory way, from communities that I moderate.
One of the easiest things to do to avoid this is selecting communities and sticking with “subscribed.” Despite the federated nature of Lemmy, I just hang out on Beehaw, because it’s predictably not going to irritate me.
That’s a good choice. I’m rarely on beehaw, maybe I should change that.
I’m rarely out of Beehaw, works like a charm.
Also only really lurk around beehaw, and maybe(e) it really is nicer here. Haven’t had any complaints.
Because that’s what social media generates and all social media was a mistake.
I liberally use that block button. Even to whole communities & instances. Worrying about blocking a toxic user’s speech from anyone’s view but your own is not worth the effort (unless you happen to be a mod).
That’s helped me a lot as well :) but I wish the block wasn’t one sided. It’s an odd choice that the other user can still see our content.
whatever we post is public… you can’t stop someone from seeing public things. (Even if it worked the way you would like, they could browse anonymously or on a different account to see it). Blocking makes it convenient for you (so you don’t have to look at public things that you don’t want to see).
Good point but typically blocking is two way not a one way mirror.
Back in my day, one-way used to be the norm. Two-way is a more recent thing on some newer platforms, and I’m of the opinion that it does more harm than good. Especially in a public forum like this, it can be abused by bad actors as a way of hiding misinformation from those that would push back against it.
I know this because when Reddit changed their block system from one-way to two-way, that’s exactly how it ended up getting abused.
For 2-way blocking, check Threads. It has more trolls and spam, but also more options like:
- User “Mute”: 1-way block, like Lemmy
- User “Block”: 3-way block, you don’t see them, they don’t see you, nobody sees their replies to your comments
- Reply “Hide for everyone”: hide replies to your comments
- Comment “Limit who can reply”: Anyone / only Followed / only Mentioned
Although it’s a Meta spawn, it ends up being relatively clean since users can “ban” each other from discussions, which works as a de-escalation mechanism.
I mean, maybe a de-escalation, but also rife for it’s own forms of abuse.
IE… someone wants to spread misinformation… they block anyone fact checking or disproving their nonsense.
Now I fully agree, the misinformation rabbitholes have diminishing returns the longer the thread and arguement goes on.
IE lets say
Misinformer, posts blatent lie.
Person1: Rebuts lie, Includes multiple credible sources for the rebuttle.
Misinformer: Claims all true sources are in a conspiracy or agenda.
Person1: argues back
At this point it’s just wasting everyones time… but IMO the initial fact check is important for people approaching.
So in the lemmy method.
Person 1 can debunk the claim. Block the person… leave it up to others if they actually want to bother engaging etc…
Sounds to me like the threads method on the other hand… Fake claimer can go… and either whack a mole block comments that disagree… or shut off discussion altogether leaving the claim unchecked. To me that seems a bigger problem. Fact is there’s a lot of falsehoods that sound convincing to the general public, but are easilly disprovable with a bit of research, and IMO they need to be challanged where the claims are made.
That is true, but only works at a single thread level:
- Mallory posts some misinformation - A
- Alice replies with a rebuttal - B
- Bob replies to Alice with further fact-checking - C
- Mallory hides Alice’s comment B, leaving Bob’s C only visible to Alice
- Eve adds a supporting reply - D
- Charlie replies to Eve with a rebuttal - E
- Eve can hide Charlie’s E, but Mallory can’t
Now Mallory has to decide whether to:
- Hide D+E, losing Eve’s support D
- Hope for Eve to hide E
- Leave Eve’s support D with Charlie’s rebuttal E visible
If Mallory keeps hiding replies, her post A will have less engagement, with a notification of “Some additional replies are unavailable”.
Meanwhile… Alice doesn’t need to stop rebutting A:
- Alice reposts Mallory’s A as a quote with her own comment - B(A)
- Mallory can do nothing about B(A) since it’s under Alice’s control
- Alice replies to her own B(A) with a quote of Bob’s C - C2
- If Alice got to see Charlie’s E, she can also quote it - E2
If people like Alice’s rebuttal, then it can get more engagement than Mallory’s misinformation, which makes the algorithm show it to more people.
So while the system can create echo chambers at a single thread level, as long as a post is open to comments and resharing, which are essential to spreading it, anyone can also grab it and create their own chamber around it.
It’s usual to see these kinds of reposts, with separate discussions, sometimes linking to each other and creating larger discussion pools.
People using somewhat anonymous accounts feel that they can get away with behavior that would otherwise not be tolerated in real life. If someone doesn’t want to be subjected to such behavior, then there are few options. One of them being refraining from using online forums.
I keep wondering, if forums and social media platforms required ID verification (probably through a third party with policies against retaining PII) and each account was linked (but not necessarily publicly) to a real ID, would that help? For example, being banned from a platform would be permanent since the ban would be tied indirectly to your ID, meaning that consequences would be real for abuse.
I feel like the core problem is that people can post without consequences. It’s both a good thing and a bad thing ofc, but maybe the downsides are too big.
Could also maybe be a more robust “verified” system I guess where all platforms verify identities of businesses/people through a common provider, and even a platform like Lemmy could show who is verified (which would require tying the identity to the account publicly). This would still allow for anonymous accounts, but those who are verified would be able to be held accountable to what they post online in exchange for higher credibility. I don’t think the verification systems we’ve seen already really help that much though, considering how toxic twitter has been basically throughout its entire existence.
Facebook has a “real name” policy. It doesn’t work, some people create plausibly sounding fake accounts, while others get banned for not sounding plausible enough. Chinese social networks require official ID registration, they’re still full of trolls, bullying, and fake accounts. The EU is working on an expanded Digital ID service suite… theoretically it could be done well, but based on past experiences, I remain somewhat skeptical.
It wouldn’t accept my real name as apparently I had an account. I had to use a fake one. It was perfectly happy.
That was a couple of years ago though.
Good on you for using your real name. Just as some criticize wikipedia for anonymitity, I wonder if a forum with real names would cause people to be more respectful.
Your an admin here, can I ask which com is best for selfhosting?
which com is best for selfhosting?
Not sure what you mean. Would you, please, elaborate?
I wonder if a forum with real names would cause people to be more respectful.
Permies.com requires people to use their real name (at least something that sounds real) and there’s very little toxicity there. Although how much that affects things I don’t know, as the mods are very active, and quick to ban.
Society tried that for a bit. It was called Facebook and most people just found ways to be jerks on there too!
Beyond reporting and blocking I’ll usually take a break or depending on the amount of toxic people I may just leave the platform altogether.
If you find yourself surrounded by assholes it may best just to leave and find a new spot.
Spaceballs: The Comment Thread
Taking a break is a good idea but I came here from reddit because I enjoy selfhosting and believed in this alternative. I don’t know where else I’d go. I enjoy the forum style community.
The beauty of this kind of platform (Lemmy) is you can leave one instance that has affiliations you don’t like and move to one that has affiliations you like.
For example I have alts on other instances that aren’t federated the same so particular instances I see as quite problematic I never see their comments or posts. It makes the whole thing more pleasant.
There’s also having multiple accounts that are focused on different things, like one that’s focused on memes, one that’s focused on news, one that’s focused on hobby things, so that you can keep them all separated and isolated from each other. That way, if the account you have for news is going to be particularly in a knee-deep-of-dread situation (like political content) afterwards you can switch to your hobby account and not see that content until you’re ready again.
IMO it’s good for your mental health as you can take breaks from the dread.
That’s a good idea! Also gets people off your back when they’re rude.
Exactly!
Compartmentalizing your online presence is always a good thing.
